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Poster: jerlouvis Date: Aug 3, 2011 7:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What Do You Like About The 80's ?

There is no debating it for me either,since he never played an actual piano,and various other reasons.I come here for intelligent discourse on the GD's music,not to waste my time or try to prove blatantly obvious facts to people of differing opinions.You want an example,listen to any Dark Star,Playin',or Other One from 72'-74',Doobie boy is not on the same level.Other than that you are wasting my time.

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Poster: wisconsindead Date: Aug 3, 2011 11:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What Do You Like About The 80's ?

Well Jer, if I may, let me at least describe my position. I'm not trying to convince you, but I do believe there are legit reasons to feel the way I do.

I'd say the biggest reason, for me, as to why brent was a superior player, or the best the dead ever had, is that he is more adds to a jam more than keith or the others typically did. We wander from instrument to instrument in our listening. When someone is doing something sweet, we usually pay attention to them. That being said I think Brent had these moments WAY more frequently than any other keyboardist. I love Keith, don't get me wrong, I live for early 70s DS, TOO and playins. But when it comes to keyboardists, I just find it hard to say Keith was better than Brent when Brent showed up to jam far more and made much more of an impact on the jams being played. That is my reasoning, which has nothing to do with what kind of keys were being played.

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Poster: jerlouvis Date: Aug 3, 2011 1:55pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What Do You Like About The 80's ?

I will give this one last shot,in your original post you said PIANO PLAYER,not keyboardist,PIANO PLAYER,my conversation with you was about which person was a better pianist Keith or Brent,to make a ridiculous debate even less sensible,one of the parties did not even actually play a real piano,but an ineffectual electric version,not even a respectable Fender Rhoades,but some cheesy horseshit Korg or whatever it was.So I will say again that on the best day of his life Brent did not have 1/10th of the inventiveness or physical ability Keith displayed on the piano.As for how you feel about Brent in any manner other than the subject I responded to I can't say that I care even a little,if your original post had said keyboardist in place of pianist no conversation would have ensued.

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Poster: wisconsindead Date: Aug 3, 2011 2:26pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What Do You Like About The 80's ?

well to be fair. Neither of us know how great Brent was on a grand piano. Or acoustic piano. W.e it is that you're referring to. He rarely played it (i can only think of the acoustic 1980 sets), as Keith never played an organ so we don't know how he was at that (he might have been amazing). May I go so far as to say, Brent could've been even better than Keith on a grand piano. I know! the blasphemy!

My argument, if you pay attention what I'm saying is that he made the most of a melody, more so than keith (and its gonna take a lot of suggested listening to over turn my opinion on this, I've listened to PLENTY of early and late dead). The magic of the early years has little to do with Keith (if anything its the sound of his piano), the opposite is so with the 80s. Brent was more integral to the 80s sound than Keith was to the early 70s.

Please don't get so heated/offended by me sharing my opinion. I mentioned "keys" multiple times in my post and it should've been obvious what I meant. Im sorry I was apparently so vague.

I hope we can leave this discussion happily. I enjoy not making enemies here (which at times seems so hard to do).

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Aug 4, 2011 4:11am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What Do You Like About The 80's ?

"The magic of the early years has little to do with Keith..."

That's pretty far from being an accurate statement. You need to spend a little more time listening to some 1972 shows. Keith's playing is a big reason that the music from the European tour is so fine. Listen to just about any Dark Star or Other One from that tour and you'll see you are wrong...

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Aug 4, 2011 11:09am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What Do You Like About The 80's ?

Not only that, but I'd say that Keith was an important part of the band's boogie-woogie first set sound from that same period. No other GD keyboard player sounded better on the barroom songs. Brent, by contrast, produced a sound fundamentally at odds with the spirit of those songs.

I like Brent and appreciate the contributions he made, but no way he was better or more central to the sound that Keith was during the golden years. Find me one sloppy performance by Keith from 1971-1974. Just one.

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Poster: wisconsindead Date: Aug 4, 2011 8:44am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What Do You Like About The 80's ?

I hear ya Cliff. It is, certainly a bit of an exaggeration. More so trying to emphasize brent's role in his years. Though, I think he was number 5 behind Jerry, Bobby, Phil and Bill. (idk if I'd say that for brent).

Anyway though, wanna link me to something particular? Im still mostly a fall 72 head, of which many recordings dont capture keith. 10-21-72 would be one.

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Aug 4, 2011 9:05am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What Do You Like About The 80's ?

Just about every performance of Dark Star and The Other One on the Europe '72 tour is marvelous, and not in small part from Keith's contribution.

I would recommend the Tivolis Dark Star on 4/17/72. Keith really shines:

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1972-04-17.sbd.ashley-field.34032.sbeok.flac16

Also the Dark Star in Hamburg on 4/29/72 features some great play by Keith:

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1972-04-29.sbd.sirmick.32877.sbeok.flac16

You certainly need to check out the Truckin'/Other One Jam in Newcastle on 4/11/72. Brilliant Jazz piano by Keith:

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1972-04-11.sbd.jackson.smith.94377.sbeok.flac16

And of course the post drums segement of the Other One from London on 5/26/72. One of Keith's shining moments with the band:

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1972-05-26.sbd.waddell.89641.sbeok.flac16

While I'd have to agree that Brent's introduction certainly revitalized the band. I'd be surprised if you would not concede Keith's superior musicianship after listening to his contributions during what might have been his peak with the Grateful Dead.

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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: Aug 4, 2011 8:19am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What Do You Like About The 80's ? Brent & Keith

I saw this post yesterday, didn't have time to comment, but I feel compelled to now.

As a graphic artist, I am very aware of the use of "space" and placement of objects, and how blank space (either black or white) can be used for emphasis and contrast. For me, this is all-important in music as well - some empty spaces or rests actually accentuate what's going on around the melody, bass, and rhythmic sound. My personal knock on Brent is that he tends to fill some of that space all too often, either echoing Jerry's lead or dousing it with tinkley sounds - that deedle-deedle of two notes. Yet, he contributed in a great way just as often.

To your point - yes I'd agree Brent was more integral to the 80's sound - but the other half of that statement is easily refuted. Keith was extraordinarily integral to the sound from 71-77, especially 72-74, opening new vistas into jazzy territory and adding sophistication, imho. (78-79 - not so much.) His playing is not as colorful as Brent's (to these ears that's a good thing). I think Keith's improvisatory musical ideas really spurred Garcia a great deal, and his rhythmic chops filled a nice gap as Weir developed his unique in-between style. For many heads, 71-77 are the best years of the band, and that means Keith.

I'd agree that Brent contributed some terrific backup vocals, in good pitch and vocally controlled, and although I'm not a fan of his voice, he did a fine job filling the high vocal space after Donna left. Not to mention - Brent was in the chair longer than any other keyboard player, contributed songs of his own, and was there during what some regard as their best years from a touring p.o.v.

There's room to enjoy all the keyboard players - but you'll get called on blanket statements. We can agree to disagree.

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Poster: jerlouvis Date: Aug 3, 2011 10:37pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What Do You Like About The 80's ?

I like you WD, and am not looking to argue with anyone here,and certainly have no interest in changing anyones mind about anything.So I guess we will put this one behind us and call it a day.